Zacchae'us Paul combines church background and Caribbean rhythms on "Jazz Money"

Credit: Dennis Manuel

The dizzying "Banana Laffy Taffy" opens with Zacchae'us Paul crooning "What you see is what you get." What he gives listeners on his debut album, "Jazz Money," is a glimpse into the mind of a thoughtful creative. But the project goes beyond surface value - as Paul challenges his audience to rethink the boxes life puts us in.

Paul grew up in the musically rich city of Atlanta, Georgia and his family nurtured his love for the artform. His stepfather and church family were especially influential in shaping his heart for music and community. The singer and multi-instrumentalist has always had a desire to break boundaries and decided to study music in Puerto Rico to broaden his horizons. While there, he learned about rhythms and connected with local legends. Now, as he lives between New York and Philadelphia, Paul continues to place importance on building relationships and exchanging ideas with other artists.

"Jazz Money" is a sort of thesis combining his lifetime of soaking up knowledge of Gospel roots, Atlanta hip-hop, Motown soul and Caribbean rhythms. "Better Dayz" sprinkles in a bit of boom-bap and "Alright" is a jazzy twist on Kendrick Lamar's anthem of the same name. "First Black Republic" is a delightfully distorted concoction of Paul's various influences and "Save the Children" is an enticing exhibition of everything he learned in Puerto Rico. The album has an underlying message of freedom, physical and mental.

"Jazz Money" is released through Candid Records, a historic label that paved ground in blues and housed Grammy-nominated artists. It's evolved through the years and now bridges a celebration of the past with reissues from artists like Charles Mingus, Max Roach, Abbey Lincoln and Otis Spann with an ushering in of the new era of jazz featuring Paul, Milena Casado and Morgan Guerin, who both appear on "Jazz Money."

For Paul, his music isn't about himself, but about bringing people together. It's something that he thinks is essential as an artist and, as he navigates the industry, he stays grounded through his faith and focus on the craft.

When Kick The Concrete spoke with Paul, he shared more about his journey, including embracing the underdog story, celebrating Black women and expanding his palette.

This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

Kick The Concrete: You just released the video for “Banana Laffy Taffy." It definitely has a clear, whimsical aesthetic. What was your vision for that video?

Zacchae'us Paul: Well, my director, Hans Elder, we had the idea of just being in a white space. My reference for that was, it was a Lil Yachty video that they use different shots of what can you do in a white space? What all can you execute with just me and a piano? That was pretty much the premise of it and the cream background and the cream piano as well. I was just trying to kind of give a different approach to the sound, what we think the sound would look like is a different look than what it would sound like, what you would think.

KTC: It was very fun, definitely had a vibe to it. And the song even is playful, but you have deeper messages kind of sprinkled in it about hustling and reclaiming jazz. What was that duality that you wanted to express in the song?

ZP: I listen to a lot of Billy Paul. I listen to a lot of Marvin Gaye. But some of my favorite records are the Marvin Gaye the "Vulnerable" album, it's all just like big band production, and also Billy Paul's first record ("Feelin' Good At The Cadillac Club"). We know him for “Me and Mrs. Jones.” “Mrs. Jones, Mrs. Jones, Mrs. Jones.” And so we don't really hear him in too much of the jazz context, but he sung in his own voice. Typically in jazz, a lot of the young kids, we try to emulate older singers without really kind of having their own voice. What do you actually sound like? So that's why I was just trying to bring a different kind of energy to it.

I start by saying, “What you see is what you get/In my mind, the money spent/Count up by the days, the hustle is the same, the bag is claimed/The wounded can't complain, because our heart is full of faith.” These little riddles are kind of rooted in different things of the underdog. The whole premise of the "Banana Laffy Taffy" is the underdog. When you go for candy, you don't pick the banana flavored candy ever. I mean, I don't know about you, but me, I'm gonna go for strawberry, I'm gonna go for the more desirable things. But little did they know that banana flavor is probably one of their best flavors. 

So that's how I see life and also like fame, right? Fame or clout, when it comes to music and artists, it's really a pay to play kind of game. It's not so much about the talent. It's not if you studied, it’s not if you have an expansive music palette, or if you know every genre, or whatever it may be. It’s all about if you have money, if you have privilege to be able to pay. And if you can, you pay to be on playlists, "What see is what you get." So that's kind of the whole premise of that.

It also goes into, back in the day, there were a lot of marijuana references before it was illegal. Even the whole premise of how marijuana is illegal was also based on Black jazz musicians. So, if you go back to Cab Calloway, you go back into all the reefer records, and they were super whimsical and very theatrical. It kind of changed the way you perceived certain things. "Oh, it's illegal." But you hear a song like that, it's, "Oh, okay. This is an interesting take on this thing that people say that is bad." So it was kind of a nod to that, “Banana wraps, banana kush/It's all in once your friends done took.” It means multiple things. It means like, okay, you're such a nice person that being a nice person, you always end up getting hurt by those that you love, because you always will feel like you're being taken advantage of. It's kind of a duality in that. But the premise of the whole song is the underdog.

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KTC: Banana Laffy Taffy is good. Do you like the banana Runts too?

ZP: I like the banana Runts. I haven’t had them many times, but yeah, they're pretty good.

KTC: How does that story of the underdog represent you and your journey?

ZP: I feel like in ways, I am an underdog, just based off of how I've been trying to climb to get my music released and to get my music out there. It's harder for artists that don't necessarily have the financial means to be able to shoot a music video. To be able to shoot music video, not just to shoot it, but also to market it. Make the music. Let's talk about making the music. I make all my music. I'm an analog head, so I have a lot of outboard gear. I invested tons of money into getting a microphone, getting an interface, getting a laptop, studying and engineering school. I went to Full Sail University, but before that, I went to Puerto Rico and I studied Caribbean music, because I'm trying to get out of what I was born into. 

So I was really raised a Gospel musician. So trying to break out of that mental, you can kind of get placed in a box when you're raised in a certain kind of way. So, how do you break free? What does freedom look like? I didn't have the funds to be able to really market, even this album the way I really wanted to. You need thousands of dollars to get a PR person. Nobody wants to talk about that. PR could be for three months, four months, $5 or $10 thousand dollars. How does one artist, how do you pay for that? And you have bills. You have to pay for food. You have rent. And just for impressions, for 10% of those people to be able to even, you know, it's a growing, it's a staggering block. So I feel blessed and honored to be able to have you and to be able to come around good people like yourself. And I’ve found great management now and I’m able to kind of move in a better way, but it’s still a grind and it’s a lifelong journey.

If I was rich, oh my God, Victoria, I could be on all the billboards. I already know where to go to buy the billboards. I would have my album in every record store. I know how to make the things happen, but you need financial to make it happen.

KTC: How does it feel to have your debut album out and be on Candid Records, which has such a history?

ZP: I feel honored. I feel grateful. I feel extremely grateful. I feel happy to be able to debut my album to people like yourself to be able to listen to it, and for it to be a product that I can sell and "Hey, check this out." And I have such confidence in it that, okay, you may not know me, I might not be Drake, but at the end of the day, if you listen to this, I feel like you probably gonna like it.

So I just feel grateful and honored that I also had the great Terri Lyne Carrington. She’s my A&R for Candid Records, and she's such an Auntie to me. She's the kind of person that puts people on. She's, how do you say it? She's like the Yoda, really, of popular music, of all music, I'd say. She knows everybody and it's wonderful to be able to come across good people like her, and to be able to have access to her, just to speak to her, and to talk about music. I had a wonderful A&R experience with her. We had lots of back and forths with this album about features, who should be on it, who shouldn’t be on it. All kinds of things like, "Oh, this snare is a little too low. Oh, your vocals is a little too loud here." Just little minute things that you need from someone else to be able to really package up an album for it to be listened to by everyone. Because after a while, you can get ear fatigue. So you need a good A&R, so I'm blessed to be able to have that.

And Candid Records is myself, Milena Casado and Morgan Guerin, we were some of the first ones to release an album through them. So it's been very fun to have my friends along on the ride with me, and for all of us to be able to play with each other and we’re all on each other’s albums.

KTC: That's so cool. What a special thing to have that mentorship and that legend walking alongside you.

ZP: Absolutely, yes.

KTC: I heard that you have eight brothers and sisters, and that you also have a passion for collaboration. Do you think growing up with your siblings helped fuel that passion for collaboration? Or how did that shape you as an artist?

ZP: I think yes, but also just growing up in church, and I was thankful to my mother that I grew up in a good church. Not everyone was able to have a good church experience. A lot of times, a bad church would leave someone so heartbroken and hurt that they will never go back and it will leave real trauma there. So I know that, and I'm blessed, and I'll say in that way, I'm privileged to be able to have came up under a good church, because through the church, I was able to collaborate with so many musicians and like so many singers and so many artists and so many choirs. We would have guest churches come and my church was probably one of the first Black mega churches in Atlanta, Georgia, Mount Carmel Baptist Church. We have some of the best Gospel artists.

So this is the thing, I didn't grow up under a jazz umbrella. I would say that Gospel is the root to all music. So I'm privileged to be able to say and know, I know exactly where this rhythm comes from, I know exactly where this swing comes from, where the blues comes from and understanding that Black people did not categorize these things that back in the day, people have categorized them for us. All of that is the root of the church.

So by being able to grow and go to jam sessions and go to choir rehearsals and meet so many different other musicians and play together and that was always the root of me. I didn't come from the "Let me just do everything by myself" mentality. "Oh, let me call John John, because John John plays drums really dope." "Oh, let me call Cynthia, because Cynthia is a great vocalist." Let me bring people together. I've always been a person to bring people together. And I think that's what we should do. And I think that's the essence of a true musician. You gonna learn all these instruments just play by yourself? That's not fun. You're gonna surround yourself, just around you? What fun is that to be able to just have everything for yourself? You don't have it to share that. That's why I brought so many artists onto “Jazz Money.” I’m finding things for my friends to do. That’s what you’re supposed to do.

Credit: Dennis Manuel

KTC: We're given our gifts to share them, right? I always think of the Parable of the Talents, we’re not meant to bury them. And for you, as you've grown in your artistry and experienced more of the industry, how has your faith remained your foundation? There are references of prayer throughout “Jazz Money,” why is it important to still represent that even as you grow as an artist and your platform furthers?

ZP: It's been difficult, especially moving up to the north, northern states. I wasn't raised in New York, or I didn't really do trips to New York growing up. I moved here I was already an adult. So it was definitely a culture shock, just about how everybody wants the same thing, and people are so desperate to get it that it will change them. So you have kind of like a lot of weird dark energy surrounded around this industry. So that can be kind of depressing. And it has been depressing to me, being able to go out and experience certain kinds of just non-communal moments. Just like, "I need this, I deserve this. I have this and I haven't got that." Trying to remove myself from that thinking, but also understanding this is a journey. And I have to stay prayed up and remember where I came from for me to stay sane. 

Because a lot of amazing musicians as they get older, they go crazy. Either if it's not drug abuse or alcoholism, it's mental health. It could physically drive you crazy. So how can I not go crazy? I don't want to be in this industry, 65 and feeling like, "Oh, I did this and this, and I didn't receive X, Y and Z. I didn't receive a Grammy," and feeling all these different jaded feelings. I don't want to be jaded. And I have seen too many documentaries for me to be able to end up like that. That's how I look at it as a Gen Zer, right? We have access to all of these videos, and Millennials as well, we have access to all these videos, everybody, we have access to Billie Holiday’s documentary. We have that show "Unsung." Listen, I used to love that show. I used to watch it all the time. Unparalleled, you know, like all of that. I was a huge, huge, huge, huge "Unsung" fan. I would just study and see what I could learn from these stories, because there's no excuse for me to go into that rabbit hole when many, many artists were way before me have been through that similar thing and has always ended the same way. And still to this day, it’s ending the same way. So it's difficulty to be able to release that, but also it comes from the music, because the music is the most powerful thing. So we need better lyrics. We need better music to be on the airwaves. That's why the marketing has to be our number one thing. Remember where you come from and focus on your marketing. A, B, that's it.

KTC: Yeah, that branding and that message is so important. It's essential.

ZP: Yes it is, very essential, yes.

KTC: "Jazz Money" opens with Beah Richards on “Alpha Woman” and “Mama Said” is a powerful song. The project definitely celebrates Black women. What was your intention with that and why was that important to you to make that an element of the album?

ZP: Well, because this industry is hard on women in general, on all women, and especially for Black women, it's extremely hard. All of these are men-led spaces. These jam sessions are men-led spaces. And unfortunately, we're still in a day and age where male and female in that sense, we still treat each other differently. Men treat women differently when it comes to that, and men treat men differently, good or bad. It's not fair for women, period in this industry.

So I'm just trying to make sure that I do my part, and just letting y'all know it's still not okay, it's still not good. It's still not good. It's so much more better that we can do. I mean, of course, the pandemic messed a lot of that up when it came to community and jam sessions and offering to be the therapy for musicians. To be able to release and to be able to come together, that is the epitome of a musician for me. I feel that's where you go to study, I feel that's where you go to learn and to thrive. And you go to these jam sessions and there's not a lot of women at these places. It's a bunch of dudes. I don't know about you, I don't like to be around too many men. “Alright, y’all. It’s enough of y’all. Where the ladies at?”

There's a lot of dope things happening in Brooklyn. At Filthy Diamond, there's a women-led jam session that happens there. All the ladies, they bring their own compositions, and they're playing original tunes. That's a huge thing. Because me, I don't like to sit around and play covers all day. Absolutely not. So for there to be a women-led jam session, that’s open to all, of course, but to be women-led and it feel comfortable to be able to go into space and to be able to just be looked at as a musician, not so much as like, “Oh, you know, she's fine. What she got on?” It just goes to the human aspect of it. So that's why I kind of go so hard in my music about just the education of where we came from.

When it goes down to “Mama Said,” another privilege I would say is I have a good mama. We weren't rich. We're under-middle class. But listen, I had a good mama. I had a good grandma. And a good dad, father as well. The things that my grandma have taught me, I listened. I was a listener. Just to learn how to cook, clean, learn how to speak. How do you speak to women? Learning how to understand and try to do better always within a man's self. "Mama said," you know. Just listen to your mama, because once you get older, it's a different thing. It starts young. You got to start young. I had too many friends go down either in jail or locked up. That's the only really place where I'm from, you’re either gonna go to the military, you go find you a church to work at, or you go to jail or you’re gonna be in the streets or dead. There ain’t too many options in that way. Or play basketball. So, I was smart enough to listen to my mama. So that's just the ode to my mom and grandma.

KTC: That was beautiful. “Mama Said” was a standout track to me and, yeah, as a woman, thank you. And I know Black women have it even harder than I do. So thank you.

ZP: Absolutely, thank you.

KTC: For the sake of time, do you have a favorite track that you would like to talk about?

ZP: I think maybe one of the deep cuts, I call the deep cut records, is “Save the Children” on the “Jazz Money” album. I made that record maybe about four or five years ago, because I used to live in Puerto Rico, and I studied there at the Conservatory of Music (El Conservatorio de Música de Puerto Rico), and also I studied at the Inter Metro (Universidad Interamericana de Puerto Rico Metro campus) where I studied popular music. I would say that school, they were kind of predominantly on the jazz tip, or the North American jazz tip, and I was really there to learn Caribbean music, Afro Caribbean music. So I got to a lot of bomba, a lot of plena, a lot of samba, pagode. Basically, learning about the Atlantic slave trade, and learning about how all the rhythms came from Africa and how we just interpreted them differently. For here in North America, a lot of the slave masters, they were not into letting them play their instruments. That’s why we are into our vocals. You look anywhere, like you go to Brazil, they want to sound like North America. It's that Gospel sound, right? And a lot of places, that's the sound. We're known for our vocals. Puerto Rico, or anywhere else in the Caribbean, they're known for the drumming. They’re known for the rhythms. They have their rhythms sectioned out. 

In America, we have funk, jazz, R&B, Gospel, right? And it's funny, because about four or five of them that I just named are probably about the same rhythm all out of Gospel, right? So how do you say, give me a R&B rhythm? Give me a Gospel rhythm? Give me a blues rhythm? That's pretty much the same beat you will be playing. We don't have our rhythms categorized. In the different parts of the Atlantic slave trade, they categorized. They kept a lot of their culture from West Africa and Ghana, and they were able to, like, “Okay, this is Guaguancó. This is a 2-3 clave, 3-2 clave.” I learned a lot of different rhythms being down there. I was in a class where I learned about the different rhythms, the alfaia. And I was so interested in just learning rhythm like, what is rhythm? How can I be different in my music through rhythm? Even down to “Banana Laffy Taffy.” I wouldn’t have been able to even do my verse in a way I did, if I didn't have the understanding of rhythm that I do now, because of what I learned from that.

Credit: Dennis Manuel

And I also learned the Batá. I took Batá classes with the great Beto (Torrens) out of Puerto Rico. He has a great community center there where he teaches different Yoruba religion music. And I was just amazed, just by the community there when it came to music, about sharing information. They're very generous about sharing their information and making sure that you know where it came from. I think that's very important. There's not a lot of gatekeeping when it comes to, like, “Oh, where this came from.” Everybody knows where it is. Anybody can go there. You can go there. You can learn Batá and you're going to learn it authentically and you’re gonna know the basics and that's really all you need. And to understand what the instrument is. The wooden Batá, only men could use that because it's the shape of a woman. And if you're not part of the religion, you don't use wooden Batá, you use the different material Batás. You need a cloth to go on top. It's all the different rules and just culture that came behind these rhythms are something that is beautiful and need to be shared with the North American people. We need to know these things.

I got into a lot of Rumba there and that's where I learned Rumba and that's where the track, the rhythm there is called Rumba. And so I had some of my friends come and play. La MiO, Ismael Cancel. Ismael Cancel is the drummer for the great iLe. She used to have a band called Calle 13, they were a big reggaeton band back in the 2000s with Residente. He’s a big rapper as well as iLe. She's amazing. I played piano with her and toured with her when I was in Puerto Rico. She's folkloric, like alternative folkloric, kind of a cross between a lot of different genres, and it's the most beautiful music. So check it out.

So yeah, just had a couple friends, I recorded that track at San Juan Sound. The owner of that studio, his name is Matthew Burr. He used to play with Grace Potter and the Nocturnals, the drummer for Grace Potter. It was such a beautiful community that I built down there. And to be able to do that and have these different genres to be meshed. Even Matthew Burr, you may just know him as a psychedelic soul band, but he's recording Rumba in his studio and recording amazing, like New Wave, folkloric music with young people. That’s the story behind “Save the Children,” just the rhythms and stuff that led to making that track.

KTC: You're working now with Beyond the Bars. How is that a way you're giving back through music?

ZP: I love working with this company. They started here in Philly. They have over maybe 115 different programs around all of Philadelphia West, North. So I pretty much teach all things, everything I know. I teach recording, I teach music production, teach the piano, and majority I teach how to use Logic. So I teach at a place near my house called JJC. It’s like a juvenile detention center. I go there every month, and basically just teach them how to make a beat. A lot of them, they're recording students. They pretty much just know what to do. You get in there, grab your laptop. Boom. They go right to making beats and we critique. We go from there and how to perfect a song, how to write a song and I pretty much do that, do that throughout the week. And I go to different schools and different homeless shelters. We also go to the prisons as well. They are an awesome organization Beyond the Bars.

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